Interview with Christopher Queen, Harvard University, Center for the Study of World Religions

June 18th, 2004
Transcription by Volunteer Citizen Journalist Jerry Helbling

ECHO CHAMBER PROJECT: Okay. So why don’t you go ahead and introduce yourself and your role at Harvard.
CHRISTOPHER QUEEN: Okay, Kent. I'm Christopher Queen. I'm a lecturer on the study of religion at Harvard University. And two courses that I teach at Harvard are Buddhism and Social Change and Buddhism in America. And my special research in Asia has to do with the Untouchables who have converted to Buddhism since 1956 in their effort to overcome the abuses of the caste system. And I recently wrote a paper on the concept of Right Speech in Buddhism because Right Speech is one of the important ethical tenets, and also one of the steps on the Eightfold Path. So it’s a very central idea --communication, and also of the notions of consumption and how those affect our behavior and our values.

ECHO CHAMBER PROJECT: Okay... What do you see as the roadpath to peace -- what we have now and what needs to change to make that a more peaceful society?
QUEEN: Well, Buddhism is I think rightly famous for associating world peace or social peace with inner peace. And it can be stereotyped or made into a cartoon, but the fact is that unless you have started to evaluate your responses to situations and to become mindful of your attitudes and your emotions and your behavior -- moment to moment -- through meditation and through self-reflection during the day -- you're not going to be able to promote a better world situation. So that -- Each person is enmeshed in a very complex web of relationships and forces in the world and this deep sense of interdependence was really the insight to which the Buddha awakened, and which started his own path as a spiritual teacher and then a movement, which is now 2500 years old.

ECHO CHAMBER PROJECT: It seems to me that there's a continuum where you have complete inner peace and not paying attention to outer action, but then you have outer action without inner peace. Can you talk about that dynamic and where people should try to aim to be on that continuum?
QUEEN: Well, it's a great question... The Buddha liked to talk about seeking the middle path in situations, but I think we need to be careful not to strive for mediocrity. And so to say that in a continuum between mindless action and a kind of passive mindfulness, he wouldn't say, 'Well be kind of mindful and kind of get out there and do some action.' I think Buddhists' attempt to bring their mindfulness into as active a relationship to a situation as possible. And it's not always easy, of course, because if there're a lot of stimuli flowing toward you -- and I think the media is a good example -- of very complex stimuli that have been very scientifically calculated to confuse you or to reorient your perceptions, then mindfulness practice can really help you stay on target and remember why it is that you turned the television on -- or why it is that you open the newspaper -- and not be drawn off either by advertising or by the slant of journalism.

ECHO CHAMBER PROJECT: [Background noise during previous answer]... When you’re looking at the continuum between the inner peace and the other continuum of complete outer action -- talk about what the Buddhist perspective on that is.
QUEEN: Well, the Buddha liked to talk about the middle path, but I think we need to distinguish that from mediocrity in trying to have a little mindfulness and a little action, and not really end up going anywhere. I think Buddhist activists attempt to bring their mindfulness into situations of great complexity or conflict, which is a difficult thing to do. Because if you have many stimuli coming at you, whether it's points of view or actual violence -- Buddhism is active in many war zones in the world today, as you know, because it started in Asia and continues to be practiced in countries like Burma and Cambodia and Sri Lanka, Tibet -- that Buddhists in these situations are trying to bring their non-violence, and their compassion, but also their great belief in human rights into play with complete mindfulness. But at the same time, not get carried away with blind passion. It’s something that we can admire, but also attempt to emulate.

ECHO CHAMBER PROJECT: In the buildup to the war in Iraq, there seemed to be a monolithic viewpoint that war was the only answer. Could you maybe provide an alternative to how that conflict was handled? And how that could have been talked about more?
QUEEN: Well, at least where I live in Massachusetts, there was certainly not a monolithic approval of the drift or the onslaught toward war. The peace movement was in fact very active in Massachusetts. And I remember weekends driving out to the western Mass. where we have a country cottage, and seeing on all the overpasses to the highway -- peace activists with their banners, and so on. "Flash Your Lights for Peace" and you know, "Don't Attack Iraq" -- and so on. So I think that the peace movement is actually awakened because of this war -- before, during and hopefully after it will stay alive. I think that in particular, perhaps from a Buddhist point of view -- [Interruption] I think the war in Iraq is no different perhaps than the war in Vietnam, which sponsored a very strong peace movement -- as you remember -- with monks actually immolating themselves on the street to bring attention to the great suffering of the people in the country. Because Iraq is a Muslim country, we haven't had a Muslim peace movement in evidence. Because, in fact, the factions within Iraq see this situation differently, and so it's harder perhaps for the Muslim peacemakers to be heard. I'm sure they're there. I have no question -- I mean, Islam means "peace" as you know. But I think for Buddhism to have any effect or any say in a war -- which is not really in a place where there are a lot of practicing Buddhists -- is difficult. And this is an unusual situation where the media are asking someone who attempts to practice Buddhism to comment on the war. It doesn't happen very often. So, thank you for doing it.

ECHO CHAMBER PROJECT: Yeah. Well, I want to get this perspective, because I think -- I see what happens is that issues become very black and white, and then either you're for it or you're against it. And the shades of gray are eliminated. Can you talk about seeing those shades of gray?
QUEEN: One of the best known Buddhist teachers in the world today is the Vietnamese Zen teacher Thich Nhat Hanh. And he wrote a famous poem many years ago -- after the bombing of a Vietnamese city in which many of his friends and loved ones were killed -- called "Call Me by My True Names." And in that poem, he tries to show that the snake, and the bug that it eats --and the pirate, and the girl who the pirate rapes, who commits suicide then -- and the arms dealer, and the rail-thin child in Uganda, who is starving because of the arms trade in his country -- are all part of the same process of human greed, hatred and delusion. And that we cannot sit back and judge those who are involved in war or who are involved in oppression as if we don't play a key role in it. And "Calling Me by My True Names" is calling me the Human Being that's part of this web of violence -- or the potential for peace. And recognizing that our choices -- whether it’s as consumers, or as voters, or as travelers, or as correspondents and writers, or as readers -- play very much a role in the kind of world we have today.

ECHO CHAMBER PROJECT: Can you comment on those three things -- the Greed, Hatred and Delusion... And talk about it in the context of our American society of what it is today. And how Buddhism could provide them a tool to move to something beyond where we're at today.
QUEEN: Well, I think America is a very fertile culture for Buddhism to take root, and it’s -- Americans have been fascinated by the Dharma for over a hundred years. Even Emerson and Thoreau knew something about Buddhism -- they weren't quite sure whether it was Hinduism or Buddhism. But I think what they responded to was the notion of the sacred in nature, and the sacred in the heart and in the universe, and the idea of participating in this kind of thing. Hatred, greed and delusion have their own American flavor. Hatred, I think, probably has come along with the tremendous military power and economic power that we now wield. I don't think our country was founded on hatred -- it was founded with a quest for independence and freedom. Yet, it’s impossible to be a superpower -- or the only superpower without beginning to feel paranoid about losing what you have. So hatred is bred because we feel others are criticizing us or perhaps impairing our freedom to be comfortable or to be rich. Greed, obviously, is a product of our commercial, capitalist system... That, you know, our consumer choices clearly do express who we are as a people, and who we are as individuals. And it is profoundly true -- and I think Madison Avenue, and the ad industry knows it’s profoundly true -- that the more you have, the more your want, and it never is over. And the addiction that we have to forms of material consumption, and to comfort, and to thrills is a never-ending process for us. So that we are being progressively hooked on so many more kinds of experience and consumption than we even imagine. And each new form of media -- or each new invention -- opens up new possibilities of psychological and physical addiction for us. So there are many kinds of drugs, and we're hooked on many of them. As far as delusion goes, all people are deluded in one way or another. Americans talk a great deal about education and the importance of childhood and college education. But, you know, what is the quality of the material we are getting in the classroom or in the textbook? Who are the educators? And to what extent do communities participate in shaping the education that they need for healthy community? To what extent is education top-down and not bottom-up? And how are people defining the kinds of things that they need to learn or the skills that they need to acquire? So education is a huge battleground in our society. And the extent to which the globe -- or the planet -- is part of our education -- and that young people today are acquiring a desire to know more about or to visit other parts of the world that they may see on TV and recoil from -- I think to me is a major question. International education, intercultural education, learning of languages -- I mean, very few people spoke Arabic -- it turns out, in our country -- and therefore we did not know what our neighbors were saying about us. Most of it bad. But we should have known that, and be able to talk with them about what's happening in their part of the world.

ECHO CHAMBER PROJECT: Okay. And how do you see that -- If the media is profit-based, and people are just getting what they want -- Why are people so attracted to violence?
QUEEN: I wish I knew. I mean, Buddhists –
ECHO CHAMBER PROJECT: ... I’m going to be editing out my questions...
QUEEN: I wish I knew why people were attracted to violence. I said in my remarks earlier that -- When so many of my friends said I had go to see the films Kill Bill 1 and Kill Bill 2, I finally did it. And I felt ashamed of myself because the films were so well made. I mean, Tarantino is an amazingly skillful director. But I was ashamed of myself for enjoying those films because they were entirely about revenge and mayhem. And I also was shocked at the fact that Uma Thurman, the star of the films is the daughter of one of the great scholars of Buddhism and a student of the Dalai Lama himself, Professor Robert Thurman. Certainly the martial arts theme in the films had to do with a kind of mysticism of killing or of the precision and the fearlessness of the warrior -- and that comes from a perversion of Buddhism in Asia. But nevertheless, it seems there's no excuse for putting the kind of money into films like that. And then for people like myself -- who had the benefit of an education and exposure to Buddhism -- to go and see the film, and even to find myself enjoying it. So all I can do is confess that I’m a part of this culture, and I'm trying to work my way out of it or through it.

ECHO CHAMBER PROJECT: Okay. So, it almost seemed like the media was wanting to see that violence just as much as anyone else wanted to see a violent movie -- that they were just almost -- egging on and getting ready for war. So if that's the perception of reality that's being transmitted, then how are we going to achieve peace?
QUEEN: I think America was truly stunned by our vulnerability on 9/11. And the thought that one could really identify the collaborators -- of course the perpetrators had killed themselves, so you can't very well bring them to justice -- but the collaborators, and the network -- and somehow decapitate the network. And then the fiction that in fact the country of Iraq was somehow connected to al Qaeda, which we now know -- even this week from the hearings -- has no basis in truth. This, I think deluded many --[Interruption]
ECHO CHAMBER PROJECT: It seems that the media knows in a way that the public has this innate desire to see violence. And so they were almost egging on and eager to have a war to show these images to have a lot of people watch. How do you respond? -- You know, if that’s what the system is, then how do you move forward and try to convince people this is not the right way?
QUEEN: I guess I'm not as cynical as some to believe that, for example, this time embedding so many reporters and journalists within the troops in Iraq was purely to dish out more violence for the public. I would like to think -- and perhaps as a kind of Pollyanna hope -- that the embedding of journalists within the army is also to keep the army honest as it were, and to document the way in which collateral damage happens, and that it's not merely combatants that are engaging in conflict. And that -- In a free society, not to be able to take a close look at what our tax dollars and what our military establishment is doing -- is something that we demand. And it's not simply because we are addicted to violence.

ECHO CHAMBER PROJECT: And so -- Do you see the only way to moving towards peace is from the decisions of individuals? Or is there something that governments can do to force peace on people?
QUEEN: Well, governments are made of individuals. And it is amazing to think that an interview with a government official might begin to make that person think again about policies that he or she had a part to play. And I think that our open society -- insofar as citizens can get appointments with their representatives -- or that high government officials attempt to have photo opportunities with town meetings when an embarrassing question might slip through, and the president or secretary of state would have to answer somewhat candidly -- is a good thing. You know, Democracy may not be perfect, but it's the best system that we have -- and the media plays a crucial part in trying to open up as many back rooms as possible.

ECHO CHAMBER PROJECT: Okay. And how do you see that our media system and our media-cluttered environment feeds our greed?
QUEEN: Well, I'm addicted to NPR and PBS. And so, in the evening when I sit down to watch the news with my family, we're mainly watching "The News Hour with Jim Lehrer," which doesn't have commercial breaks. And it has a wide range of points of view -- I like to hope or believe. But at the same time, we're using our remote to try and check in on the mainstream media as well, and to try to see how the news is being spun for everybody else. And I think the remote control is actually an ethical device that you can blot out as much of the advertising as possible, and just try to -- at least when you're in news mode or learning mode -- go for the information and go for the points of view. Of course, later in the evening when you're just kind of shutting down morally and mentally, it becomes the entertainment device. But nevertheless, I think -- although I know my father would disagree -- I think there's a range of viewpoints on TV and certainly in the print media. And there're only so many hours in a day that we can compare them and reflect upon them. But having spent quite a bit of time in India where even the Times of India is silent on much of what goes on in the rest of the world, I think we're quite lucky to have rich sources of public information.

ECHO CHAMBER PROJECT: And what would you say is the best teaching that Buddhism has to offer?
QUEEN: (Laugh) We had a wonderful disagreement among three Buddhist practitioners this morning about that. I was saying it's impermanence and --
ECHO CHAMBER PROJECT: Well, just say what you think.
QUEEN: What I think -- I think the teaching of impermanence keeps us humble --
ECHO CHAMBER PROJECT: Okay -- Just frame it as "The greatest" --
QUEEN: For me, the greatest teaching of Buddhism is the teaching of impermanence. And while it's true that the Greek philosopher Heraclitus said, "You can't step into the same river twice" -- and Darwin talked about the evolution of all things -- or all biological things -- the Buddha really put an ethical spin on that. And that impermanence gives us the opportunity to reach realization and awakening. And -- [Interruption]
ECHO CHAMBER PROJECT: Sorry. Start one more time.
QUEEN: One more time... I've come to feel that the teaching of impermanence is one of the highest teachings in Buddhism, because it forces us to be humble about who we've become but hopeful about who we might become. And of course, Buddhism is an ethical system, which encourages us to practice kindness and compassion. And so the impermanence of things means that we always have another chance.

ECHO CHAMBER PROJECT: Okay. And if that were to be applied -- What would change to what is wrong now?
QUEEN: Well, it seems obvious that a ripple effect occurs -- [Interruption]
ECHO CHAMBER PROJECT: If you could identify what is wrong with society now -- and if [an] impermanence perception was added, what would be the result, ideally?
QUEEN: Well, I think if people were willing not to cling to fixed ideas about the way the world needs to be, and were willing to work together for a better world, and then to practice some of the simple teachings for sharing and caring for others -- I think that we would be able to change the world, and to produce a better outcome.
ECHO CHAMBER PROJECT: Okay. Great.